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	<title>Comments on: Crying game</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bitterjug.com/blog/crying-game/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bitterjug.com/blog/crying-game/</link>
	<description>Mark Skipper's continuing adventures</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 11:30:35 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6</generator>
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		<title>By: MB</title>
		<link>http://bitterjug.com/blog/crying-game/#comment-817</link>
		<dc:creator>MB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ogham.dragonsblood.net/~bitterjug/blog/?p=191#comment-817</guid>
		<description>&#34;Had a better day yesterday; made a student cry in my class.&#34;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Is that really better?  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
woooo, boy.  You need a holiday mate.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
XX
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&quot;Had a better day yesterday; made a student cry in my class.&quot;</p>
<p>Is that really better?  </p>
<p>woooo, boy.  You need a holiday mate.</p>
<p>XX</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://bitterjug.com/blog/crying-game/#comment-818</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ogham.dragonsblood.net/~bitterjug/blog/?p=191#comment-818</guid>
		<description>Despite the crying incident, it had in fact been a better day.&lt;br /&gt;
Here I am on saturday with a class full of students doing labs for Cisco: connecting routers and pcs...
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Despite the crying incident, it had in fact been a better day.<br />
Here I am on saturday with a class full of students doing labs for Cisco: connecting routers and pcs&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Sophia</title>
		<link>http://bitterjug.com/blog/crying-game/#comment-819</link>
		<dc:creator>Sophia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ogham.dragonsblood.net/~bitterjug/blog/?p=191#comment-819</guid>
		<description>I do not thibk it is easy to convince students to participate more than they want to. For instance, the first year I taught at IC, on my first tutorial nobody volunteered an answer, so I called one student to come to the board and do thje exercise with me. (He was my tutee, I knew that he could do it, and he did do it). The outcome? I lost half the class.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So, I believe these ladies are frustrating, but no worse than students anywhere else in the world. They are not used to that, and so they do not want to do it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Sophia
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do not thibk it is easy to convince students to participate more than they want to. For instance, the first year I taught at IC, on my first tutorial nobody volunteered an answer, so I called one student to come to the board and do thje exercise with me. (He was my tutee, I knew that he could do it, and he did do it). The outcome? I lost half the class.</p>
<p>So, I believe these ladies are frustrating, but no worse than students anywhere else in the world. They are not used to that, and so they do not want to do it.</p>
<p>Sophia</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://bitterjug.com/blog/crying-game/#comment-820</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ogham.dragonsblood.net/~bitterjug/blog/?p=191#comment-820</guid>
		<description>&#34;They are not used to that and so they do not want to do it.&#34;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thanks for that Sophia. &lt;br /&gt;
I think this is part of the human condition., we never want to do things we are not used to. Pushingh the boundaries of our comfort zone: I am not used to jumping out of an aeroplane and so it took a lot of determination for me to do it. Perhaps one can be come &#34;used to&#34; doing things that scare the shit out of us. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
My perception of the students here is that they are afraid. They could do this -- perhaps if they were used to it, but they do not know it and so they will fight using their psychological methods not to participate. This just makes me mad. Im not proud of that and Im working on just accepting it. Maybe I shouldn't have done &lt;a href=&#34;http://isaexperience.com/&#34;&gt;The ISA Experience&lt;/a&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&quot;They are not used to that and so they do not want to do it.&quot;</p>
<p>Thanks for that Sophia. <br />
I think this is part of the human condition., we never want to do things we are not used to. Pushingh the boundaries of our comfort zone: I am not used to jumping out of an aeroplane and so it took a lot of determination for me to do it. Perhaps one can be come &quot;used to&quot; doing things that scare the shit out of us. </p>
<p>My perception of the students here is that they are afraid. They could do this &#8212; perhaps if they were used to it, but they do not know it and so they will fight using their psychological methods not to participate. This just makes me mad. Im not proud of that and Im working on just accepting it. Maybe I shouldn&#8217;t have done <a href=&quot;http://isaexperience.com/&quot;>The ISA Experience</a></p>
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		<title>By: Tyg</title>
		<link>http://bitterjug.com/blog/crying-game/#comment-821</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ogham.dragonsblood.net/~bitterjug/blog/?p=191#comment-821</guid>
		<description>Oh NO! Not all the ISA-speak again! In my humble opinion that was one of the worst experiences in my life... Sorry Mark - that's just how it is. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh NO! Not all the ISA-speak again! In my humble opinion that was one of the worst experiences in my life&#8230; Sorry Mark - that&#8217;s just how it is. I wouldn&#8217;t recommend it to anyone.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://bitterjug.com/blog/crying-game/#comment-822</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ogham.dragonsblood.net/~bitterjug/blog/?p=191#comment-822</guid>
		<description>Sokay honey. I know you didnt like it. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As for me, I have found it to be a vital part of growing up. Its not ISA talk again for me, its ISA talk continuously, every time I remind myself that I am here by choice. I can't imagine I would ever have coped out here so well had I not done it and learned from it. The down side is that I see these students failing to take responsibility for their own lives and just surviving and it makes me angry.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm fairly sure now that what makes me angry is my students not participating: not taking part in whatever goes on. When they do that they use various psychological gambits to make me have mercy on them and let them off without putting in any effort. It has annoyed me so much to hear people being congratulated for having **tried** something here. The ISA says a lot about how that word can be used as a cop-out for those who have, for whatever reason, decided not to succeed. But for these classes, I'd like to see my students trying.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But instead its the same old wearysome classroom experience with them waiting for me to get bored with talking to myself and get on with dictating the notes.  Mind numbing for all parties.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sokay honey. I know you didnt like it. </p>
<p>As for me, I have found it to be a vital part of growing up. Its not ISA talk again for me, its ISA talk continuously, every time I remind myself that I am here by choice. I can&#8217;t imagine I would ever have coped out here so well had I not done it and learned from it. The down side is that I see these students failing to take responsibility for their own lives and just surviving and it makes me angry.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m fairly sure now that what makes me angry is my students not participating: not taking part in whatever goes on. When they do that they use various psychological gambits to make me have mercy on them and let them off without putting in any effort. It has annoyed me so much to hear people being congratulated for having **tried** something here. The ISA says a lot about how that word can be used as a cop-out for those who have, for whatever reason, decided not to succeed. But for these classes, I&#8217;d like to see my students trying.</p>
<p>But instead its the same old wearysome classroom experience with them waiting for me to get bored with talking to myself and get on with dictating the notes.  Mind numbing for all parties.</p>
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		<title>By: Tyg</title>
		<link>http://bitterjug.com/blog/crying-game/#comment-823</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ogham.dragonsblood.net/~bitterjug/blog/?p=191#comment-823</guid>
		<description>Ola Piggie ...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I agree with you - and most of what was taught in ISA, its the  delivery that upset me. Anyways, have you ever thought of doing a &#34;self actualisation&#34; class? I don't know - maybe show them the techniques you're using to teach them - ie why you're doing things the way you are. And then also showing them that the way they respond to you or to the rest of their lives in general are not really helping them much in the long run. If you can show them how doing things your way will improve their lives ... well then ....&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
You can't always expect people to respond to you the way you want them to, especially if its something alien to them. Show them the benefits, and then maybe you'll get some converts. And if you even get a couple of converts, it might make the rest realise what they're missing out on and convert to ...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
***hugs***
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ola Piggie &#8230;</p>
<p>I agree with you - and most of what was taught in ISA, its the  delivery that upset me. Anyways, have you ever thought of doing a &quot;self actualisation&quot; class? I don&#8217;t know - maybe show them the techniques you&#8217;re using to teach them - ie why you&#8217;re doing things the way you are. And then also showing them that the way they respond to you or to the rest of their lives in general are not really helping them much in the long run. If you can show them how doing things your way will improve their lives &#8230; well then &#8230;.</p>
<p>You can&#8217;t always expect people to respond to you the way you want them to, especially if its something alien to them. Show them the benefits, and then maybe you&#8217;ll get some converts. And if you even get a couple of converts, it might make the rest realise what they&#8217;re missing out on and convert to &#8230;</p>
<p>***hugs***</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://bitterjug.com/blog/crying-game/#comment-824</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ogham.dragonsblood.net/~bitterjug/blog/?p=191#comment-824</guid>
		<description>Well that's a great challenge. Its hard to give someone the experience of being in control of their own lives.  I believe we as humans develop ways of avoiding that condition. The psychological games I'v been describing are part of that.  Being in control, rather than being a victime to circumstance, means making choices that challenge us, push our comfort zones, and then sticking with them. But we are all experts at not sticking with such: at finding ways out and then making ourselves victims so we don't have to face up to the responsibility of letting ourselves down.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In a way I have been trying to do that in the classe this term by making the choices plain and enforcing them veheremently. For example this week I had a student return after several days absence while she was sent home to bring her school fees. One morning I was told she had returned though she didn't turn up until the lesson had been on for quarter of an hour. The first activity of the morning involved small groups working together at the board and she sad down after a while. I let this go because she'd been away and might not have been able to contribute like the others. But the next one involved merely making a choice: raise your hand for options a, b or c (these were exhaustive options so not raising a hand was not an option). After 2 out of the 6 raised their hands I explained that we would do it again and that anyone who did not raise their hand for any option would be sent out of the class. As I suspected, that student chose to be ejected.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Sadly, however, this made me angry and I slammed the door after she left. I'm not proud of this. At the end of the class the other students asked to speak to me. They said they like the way I teach but that they don't like what's happening in the class now: that I shout and swear.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
My resolve is to try and avoid anger. Or if I get angry, to avoid shouting and swearing. But I will continute having no mercy on them and perhaps use ejection from the classroom as a more regular threat for non participation. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There are several reasons why I find this job frustrating. I'll try and explain them on the upcoming days. The teaching is one of them. But the whole situation makes me have to reconsider what kind of goals I might have in being here for another year.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well that&#8217;s a great challenge. Its hard to give someone the experience of being in control of their own lives.  I believe we as humans develop ways of avoiding that condition. The psychological games I&#8217;v been describing are part of that.  Being in control, rather than being a victime to circumstance, means making choices that challenge us, push our comfort zones, and then sticking with them. But we are all experts at not sticking with such: at finding ways out and then making ourselves victims so we don&#8217;t have to face up to the responsibility of letting ourselves down.</p>
<p>In a way I have been trying to do that in the classe this term by making the choices plain and enforcing them veheremently. For example this week I had a student return after several days absence while she was sent home to bring her school fees. One morning I was told she had returned though she didn&#8217;t turn up until the lesson had been on for quarter of an hour. The first activity of the morning involved small groups working together at the board and she sad down after a while. I let this go because she&#8217;d been away and might not have been able to contribute like the others. But the next one involved merely making a choice: raise your hand for options a, b or c (these were exhaustive options so not raising a hand was not an option). After 2 out of the 6 raised their hands I explained that we would do it again and that anyone who did not raise their hand for any option would be sent out of the class. As I suspected, that student chose to be ejected.</p>
<p>Sadly, however, this made me angry and I slammed the door after she left. I&#8217;m not proud of this. At the end of the class the other students asked to speak to me. They said they like the way I teach but that they don&#8217;t like what&#8217;s happening in the class now: that I shout and swear.</p>
<p>My resolve is to try and avoid anger. Or if I get angry, to avoid shouting and swearing. But I will continute having no mercy on them and perhaps use ejection from the classroom as a more regular threat for non participation. </p>
<p>There are several reasons why I find this job frustrating. I&#8217;ll try and explain them on the upcoming days. The teaching is one of them. But the whole situation makes me have to reconsider what kind of goals I might have in being here for another year.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://bitterjug.com/blog/crying-game/#comment-825</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ogham.dragonsblood.net/~bitterjug/blog/?p=191#comment-825</guid>
		<description>Angry... &#34;no mercy&#34;...  Mark this doesn't sound like you're being how you would choose to be?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm still not understanding why you're so angry with the students.  From what I can gather, the girls don't have a particularly easy life, and they probably haven't had many males/teachers as positive role models.  Shouldn't their educational environment be somewhere they can experience understanding and support?  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
To learn from you they have to trust you.  How are you earning their trust?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
How about doing an experiment for 1 week, whereby everytime you get angry you remember to be compassionate?  I seriously doubt you will get people to participate by threatening them.  And even if you do, what have you achieved?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Obviously I'm not there, and I'm not you, but you are all in this together, so why not get through it together?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Love, Chris
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Angry&#8230; &quot;no mercy&quot;&#8230;  Mark this doesn&#8217;t sound like you&#8217;re being how you would choose to be?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m still not understanding why you&#8217;re so angry with the students.  From what I can gather, the girls don&#8217;t have a particularly easy life, and they probably haven&#8217;t had many males/teachers as positive role models.  Shouldn&#8217;t their educational environment be somewhere they can experience understanding and support?  </p>
<p>To learn from you they have to trust you.  How are you earning their trust?</p>
<p>How about doing an experiment for 1 week, whereby everytime you get angry you remember to be compassionate?  I seriously doubt you will get people to participate by threatening them.  And even if you do, what have you achieved?</p>
<p>Obviously I&#8217;m not there, and I&#8217;m not you, but you are all in this together, so why not get through it together?</p>
<p>Love, Chris</p>
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		<title>By: Tyg</title>
		<link>http://bitterjug.com/blog/crying-game/#comment-826</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ogham.dragonsblood.net/~bitterjug/blog/?p=191#comment-826</guid>
		<description>Piggie, Chris has a point there, Drew, Marge and I have had long drawn out conversations about this. You know how Cookie's classes often do my head in becuase I've felt really demoralised sometimes at what she's said or not being able to keep up with her?- but we get there in the end, more because of my stubborness, rather than any good teaching on her part. She calls is tough love, but I've come to realise in working with Drew and working with my own LSE students with Tom that this &#34;Tough Love&#34; business is completely unneccessary. Encouragement and trust and respect is really what you want to cultivate - THEN its much easier to get them to learn how take control of their own lives. Anger only alienates them. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The skill of a good teacher is not only in how to teach well, but to understand how different groups of students function and to adjust their teaching to bring out the best in their students. I know you can do it - don't get angry and give up on them - instead work out work out how you can expose their strengths and make them feel proud and confidant about themselves.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
BIG HUGE HUGS TO YOU!!!
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Piggie, Chris has a point there, Drew, Marge and I have had long drawn out conversations about this. You know how Cookie&#8217;s classes often do my head in becuase I&#8217;ve felt really demoralised sometimes at what she&#8217;s said or not being able to keep up with her?- but we get there in the end, more because of my stubborness, rather than any good teaching on her part. She calls is tough love, but I&#8217;ve come to realise in working with Drew and working with my own LSE students with Tom that this &quot;Tough Love&quot; business is completely unneccessary. Encouragement and trust and respect is really what you want to cultivate - THEN its much easier to get them to learn how take control of their own lives. Anger only alienates them. </p>
<p>The skill of a good teacher is not only in how to teach well, but to understand how different groups of students function and to adjust their teaching to bring out the best in their students. I know you can do it - don&#8217;t get angry and give up on them - instead work out work out how you can expose their strengths and make them feel proud and confidant about themselves.</p>
<p>BIG HUGE HUGS TO YOU!!!</p>
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